Water injection.

[Bogmeister]

Hey Glort, how do you think a 3.0 would go with the bunnings/pope nozzle and VDO water pump after the turbo?

[BigGQWesty]

The only problem I can see with the bunnings job after the turbo is the increased pressure you'll be dealing with.. So a stronger pump and connections would be needed.,

[Glort]

In regards to Methanol, you can get it in Sydney for around $200 per drum.

What I have been using however is ethanol.

There are a few servos around that sell that new E85 Crap. I put 20L in a 25L drum, add 5L of water, give it a shake and you get a nice separation of ethanol and petrol in 10 min flat. Decant the Ethanol water mix for your WI and you have some clean petrol for blending with or putting in the mower, chainsaw or whatever without the thing pulling moisture out of the air. I even wash my petrol that way now to get rid of the ethanol.

The E85 is a bit over a buck a litre last time I bought it. I -think- only caltex have the E85.

As for the Nozzles, I have always maintained that micro atomisation is not required for Cleaning purposes. Now after looking at some vids yesterday, I question the requirement for it at all. When the water is sprayed in an inlet, some, maybe a lot is going to hit the sides of the inlet tube where it will coaleace into much bigger drops. Like as if the the water was dribbled in there in the first place.

Some will evaporate in the air and depending on the spot where the water was injected and the ambient air temp/ humidity, the rest of the water may as well. It's just not going to evaporate in the micro drops the WI companies make out.

To say that the micro fine drops are essential and to pay for high pressure pumps to atomise it like that I am certain is both unessacary and a waste of money. It may well be why my garden nozzles and low pressure pumps work as well as they do.... because in practacality and what takes place inside the engine/ inlet tract, the water may in fact be doing the exact same thing. The only possible difference I can see is wether the water is all evaporated by the time it hits the cylinder or not. If it is, then all the heat has been pulled out of the inlet charge. If it hasn't, then the cooling effect may be happening in a different place inside the engine. Either way, I think effect on EGT's would be the same.

To blast water into a 3-4" pipe at 100PSI plus and then think it all is carried off in the airstream before hitting the pipe wall and condensing into much larger drops ( Than a garden spray would create in the first place and be the same as the drops from the low pressure nozzle if it did hit) is complete and utter marketng hype and BS to me. The reason the water goes into a fine mist is because it breaks up in the air over distance. Even with a strong airflow, I can't see the water going into that fine a mist in an enclosed space. The water would still have a far greater density and speed that the air ever would and unless the air was super heated, there is no way it's not going to condense to some degree ( probably a greater one ) on the inlet wall particularly on the bends and curves where the velocity will give it inertia to keep going straight.

I think this would be real easy to test.

Disconnect the pipe from your turbo to another bit of pipe with the mist nozzle inserted. Rev engine, activate WI and see if ther is the same fine mist or drops forming and dribbling out. I know which one you ae going to see!

Like I said, this 500PSI mist stuff is all complete bunk in practacality.

While I don't know what the power increase I see in My 4.2 NA engine with the meth is, I can tell you this much, you notice it! Mine is torquey enough to have to watch how you peddle the thing out of corners or you will break traction. You can also pop the clutch in 2nd with some revs on board and lay rubber and once the wheels are spinning they will stay spinning right through the gear. None of this chirping and dying, it keeps laying the rubber.

CERTAINLY won't come near that without the water/ Meth or with water on it's own.

The thing also revs through the gears much cleaner and smoother right to the end where it normally chokes and is smoking. I think this is to do with the fact the methanol has it's own oxygen. It's sure getting better burning from somewhere.

Bog,

To stay with the cheaper washer pump and Nozzle on a turbo, the trick is to use a pressurised water tank. If you feed boost pressure to the water supply, then this effectively neutralises what the pump has to work against. Whats a cheap and easy to come by tank for this???

Ford radiator overflow tank. I think some commodores amoung others used a similar system. Basicaly any car that dosen't have a radiator cap on the radiator itself.

You feed a line above the water line ( turn the tank on edge if need be) to a boost Pressure signal so when the turbo spools up, the water reserve is pressurised. That way the water pump is seeing a neutral resistance against the boost pressure at the nozzle outlet. No need for a solenoid to stop the water being pushed out after the boost event, the pressure will bleed off straight back to the manifold the same way it came in. You can secure the 4mm lines for the water with ziplocks. It's only 35 PSI on a small line.

This is from a ford. There are others similar with better layout of the connections for our purposes but I can't remember what models they are from. have a look through the wreckers stock. There are also some small tanks from motorbikes that will do the same thing.

The other thing to remember witht he commodore/ VDO pumps is they will put out 35 PSI. Yep, don't look like it but thats what they do when measured!

No doubt the flow rate with a garden nozzle would be slowed however that may be a good thing with some setups. Still would give them 20PSI over the boost pressure a lot of people are running.

60PSI diaphram pumps are cheap and easy to get but you would want to check you flow rate as it might be too high with these pumps unless you added in a needle valve with a bypass which would give you a tuneable system.

To switch the WI at a predetermined boots level, you would use an ajustable pressure switch like this to control where the system kicked in.

http://www.ebay.com....984.m1423.l2649

So, don't you all forget to do some pics and report your successes with this so I can send you an invoice for the intelectual property Licence!

Actually if you do it and save some bucks on buying a system, how about sending a few bucks to the forum owner?

I should put this on Youtube and sell the Yanks " Plans". Some of them are 2 stupid to know how to nail 2 bits of wood together.

[BigGQWesty]

Clever thinking with pressurizing the tank..

But with my top mount air cleaner I was going to position right above inlet from the top lid.. With a dropper of an inch to put it just above the inlet.

Quick question.. Are you still noticing differences after the mix runs out? Or does the rubber tearing neck snapping torque end when the mix runs out??

I'm thinking I might try fit 20ltrs so when on tracks I can apply NoZ..

[Bogmeister]

Good thing my step father drives a falcon. I'm sure he wont miss a little bottle like that :-)

Edited June 11, 2012 by Bogmeister

[Bogmeister]

BigGQwesty

Have a look here for nozzles http://www.alcohol-i...m/en/49-nozzles. $20 or so sounds ok.

[KMsMK]

The more I read about this, the more I'm thinking about giving it a go with the mk.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Glort]

Clever thinking with pressurizing the tank..

But with my top mount air cleaner I was going to position right above inlet from the top lid.. With a dropper of an inch to put it just above the inlet.

Quick question.. Are you still noticing differences after the mix runs out? Or does the rubber tearing neck snapping torque end when the mix runs out??

I'm thinking I might try fit 20ltrs so when on tracks I can apply NoZ..

If yours is an NA like mine, that's what I have done. Drilled a 5mm Hole in the aircleaner lid right over the inlet and put the squirter right there.

You don't need ( or can) pressurise the tank because there is no turbo. The VDO pump will squirt just fine. You'll also see when you start the WI the manifold insides are black and crappy fron the PCV gasses. After a tank or 3 ( especially with meth) you'll see the insides of the manifold look like someone polished them. Imagine how the head, valves piston crowns and ports look!

After the water runs out the car still feels a lot peppier but in time if you leave the water empty the performance will have definately tapered off by the next tank.... on veg at least. The performance will then stabilise at something a lot more flat.

The rubber laying effect is significantly reduced/ eliminated.

The improvement in driveability off the juice is exaggerated with meth. The engine feels peppier for a lot longer and is a lot more pronounced. What the physical action is that's taking place to cause that I have no explaination.

I would suggest that it is the engine running cleaner but I can't imagine the thing being fouled to that degree so quick when off the squirt as to lead to that much performance drop off.

More over if it was fouling, the engine would stop within a couple of tanks so I don't see the engine internals being cleaner the whole explaination at least.

Someone did suggest to me once that they thought it may have something to do with the exhaust and mufflers that the WI cleaned and then sooted up to a cetain level. That does hold a bit more likleyhood to me.

I worked out a while back ( and providing memory is not failing me) that the extra energy from a 50/50 meth mix @ 300ml minute is conservatively 14Hp worth of extra fuel. Now that should take into account efficency losses and be pretty close to what you actually get at the flywheel.

The other thing is how dialed up your engine is in the first place.

Every diesel I have got my grubby mits on has been way underfueled from the factory. IF you have an IP thats not giving the engine all or near all the fuel it can burn, you'll get a big hit out of the WI just through the fueling effect. If you have it close to the amount of air the engine can cope with, then you may not be able to burn all the fuel and the effect won't be as great.

I notice less of an effect since I turned my IP up but that's because I'm getting more power already.

With a turbo where you could add fuel and keep the EGT's in check, then you'd really be able to get some benifit!

The cleaning effect or whatever it is has on driveability however is significant on or off the juice so is well worth while there.

Engines that haven't had water before also seem to have the most significacant and rapid improvement. My merc was transformed in the first couple of tanks of WI I used but i noticed very slight but constant improvements for about 3 months after the WI was fitted. The troll didn't have the same drawn out time frame. It took a few weeks to hit peak and that was it. Of course time is proportional to water pumped through. I may have been able to clean my engines well and truly in 4 hours with a drive up the country and a 20L tank of water/ meth.

The most fun is the first few hits with the WI on. You'll see great clouds of black crap coming out the exhaust every time you hit it. Should only do it a few times though then the main crap must be gone and the rest is released more subtley.

I had the WI running richer to start to the point of just stumbling after a while so it was cleaning best and then backed it off after a few tanks. You'll also notice yourself driving like a hoon flat out through the gears as the extra power gets addictive.

One thing also to be aware of with the meth.....

Again depending on the engine tune, you may get some nailing or rattling with the meth. This is either because you are running too high a mixture or just pumping in too much volume.

Personaly I like to keep the volume up as it aids cleaning and cooling and just dilute the water/ meth mix. For those chasing power, you would want to stay at the 50% mix, ( don't go over, you are just fueling with Meth instead of diesel then) and ajust the volume. On my cheapo system, restricting flow is just a matter of pulling the zip tie around the line to the nozzle a click or 2 tighter.

No expense spared I tell you.

And In case I missed it before:

Make sure you water tank is BELOW the level of your nozzle so the water can not syphon into your engine when it is shut off.

A twit on another forum missed that obvious bit of engineering and then bitched at me that WI was no good and caused his engine to bend a rod.

No idiot, your setup was no good and your stupidity caused your engine to bend a rod.

[Bogmeister]

The obvious is sometimes the killer.I once heard of a guy that rebiult an old Jag with a sweet 350 Chev in it. He replaced just about everything.........................Except the earth lead from the motor to the body. They reckon it cranked over for about 2 seconds before the throttle cable turned into a thousand bits of red hot shrapnel, some of which are still in orbit over Sydney lol

[Bogmeister]

Is water injection any good for removing glazing on bores? Pilot cars sometimes spend a bit of time idling and start glazing up. Blackdiesel probably doesn't help either.

[Glort]

Interesting question...... of which I had no idea as to the answer.

I also wasn't really sure what caused Glazing in this instance so I looked it up. Isn't it amazing how quick an hour goes by when your learning somethng your interested in.

I learnt what the cause of the glazing was and a realisation hit.

With my recent decline in performance of the old girl , it seems the symptoms I read of, fit those of glazing more than the thing becoming loaded up with carbon as I suspected.

I was seeing a lot of blue smoke which I put down to valves more than anything but since being back on the squirt, I have noticed this blue smoke has cleared right up. That seems to be a sign of glazing more over than coking although the 2 seem to be closely linked.

In any case I would say the answer to the question is that it is highly likley that the WI would help with preventing and removing Cylinder glazing as I now understand to be the cause of it.

Of course the great thing with WI is that you can fit it up so damn cheap, it's well worth giving it a go to prevent or fix any engine problem.

[Bogmeister]

I know mine is a bit glazed ATM from idling alot at work on black fuel. I normally use http://www.costeffective.com.au/show_product.php?ItemId=25. It works but is hell expensive. It may be a few weeks before I get my WI up and running but I will post the results.

[Bogmeister]

OK. I am ready to start putting my system together.

It will inject just before the inlet to the motor. What pump would you recommend Glort?? Would this do? http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/230711345436?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_3318wt_1163

I plan to run a 10 or 20 liter tank mounted where the rear seats used to be and a pressure switch as pictured above. YEP......Shes gunna be a big buck system .

With the pressure set to turn it on at about 9 psi, I should get a fair distance before I need to refill. I often do up to 1000km per day and don't want to carry spare water/meth mix or have to fill up with bore water.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Bogmeister

[BigGQWesty]

Nice pump. But what's this turn on at 9psi??

Edited June 25, 2012 by BigGQWesty

[Bogmeister]

I don't want water pumping in all the time, only when the motor is working hard enough to bring the EGTs up. 9 psi of boost is only a guess, I might raise or lower the switch point as needed. Have you started on your system Westy?

[BigGQWesty]

So you got a pressure activated switch? I was thinking a rpm switch for my N/A 4.2.

But I have started s little. But have had brake issues which need fixing first.. A real PITA...

[Glort]

The pump would be good.

What Nozzle you plan on using? If' it's the micro mist garden sprayer type I think you are going to have to put in a bleed with a tap so you can tak off some of the volume/ pressure to get back to a flowrate you want. From memory the nozzles are rated at 5 or 10 PSI @300Ml min . I don't think you would want to go over 300Ml min particularly in this application.

set everything up and then just manually activate the system to squirt into a jar for 15 sec, measure the output, quadruple it and you have your flow rate.

You could also lower your flowrate but also lower the point at which it kicked in if it's hard for you to get the engine doning much for long periods. Better IMHO to get some smaller amount of water going in at lower load where the engine can handle it that waiting for enough engine load to fire more in when that dosen't happen much.

I think in the cleaning aspect, the water is relevant to fuel used more than anything. I find an overall average of 10% water to fuel is a good guide. Again this is average because my WI comes in at near full tilt but that probably accounts for 1% or less of my fuel consumption but obviously 100% of my water consumption. in a system that worked more frequently, I'd also think that somewhere around 5% water to fuel would be ok because all you need to do is prevent any buildup and frequentl applications and having the WI run through a wider driving range should help. If you are planning on using meth, that seems to have a much improved cleaning effect so I think you could get away with less of a mix with that as well.

If you use 5-10L of water for every 100 of fuel, you are there. All you have to do is set up the system so the water is activated frequently though intermittently as possible through your driving range.

I don't understand what sort of driving your Pilot work requires. You mentiond long idling periods but what about the driving? I get the impression this would be mainly slow speed, light engine load?

After long idle periods I would reccomend stcking the boot in through the gears where possible and get the spray happening and the engine working a bit. I have seen some impressive smoke rings out of my cars after being stuck in extended traffic jams then getting free of them.

No doubt idling does load them up with unburnt deposits. In your case if you can blow and wash them out before they get a chance to set up hard, I think you'll have no worries.

[Bogmeister]

Devils own water injection calculator recommends 3.3GPH nozzle, that sounds a bit large to me. But again, I am only guessing.

Sometimes a pilot car will spend an hour or two idling, a few hours at 80kmh or a few hours sitting on 120 kmh. It all depends on the load, driver, terrain, brake downs, traffic etc.

[Glort]

3.3 GPH is about 13L

300ml min is about 18L

I'd say 3.3gph is a good safe rate. Given your application, I'd say going lower that the 300ml I use would be better.

Why the idling?

Why not turn the thing off or are you trying to power lights etc so you don't get falt batteries?

[Bogmeister]

Yeah, during traffic control for a breakdown/emergency stop, lights and signs must be functioning. Headlights must be on low beam, rotators must be 55w halogen, so must the wig wag lights. I also run various chargers, fridges, inverter, kick arse stereo,gps,etc. Oh yeah......and for the heater in winter . Driving involves pushing a roof mounted sign 600mm by 1200mm. The regs state that the sign can be tilted no more than 200mm backwards for aerodynamics. It must have maximum visibility. Just another PITA as far as I am concerned and the Police are usualy pretty cool with pilots. Transport coppers (RTA) on the other hand, treat us as well as they treat truck drivers

Edited June 26, 2012 by Bogmeister

[BigGQWesty]

Well I'm off to the wreckers tonight to price them up. They are known to be a rip off joint so I guess I'm going to find out.. If they are I'll go eBay..

Once I have the pump I'll just be using the sprinkler system sprayer and some push together fittings and hose for the rest.. I'll start with the 3ltr milk bottle and build a nice 15-20ltr tank once I'm happy and the dual battery system is in.. Might see if I can fit it into the 1/4 panel...

I'll try and photo it but I've been known to just do it, then think about photos.. Lol..

[Glort]

The pump I use is a VDO one from Commodores. It's black and has the 2 push on fittings. There is another one that is black as well but it has a pickup for pushing into a bottle with a rubber grommet from memory.

The couple of wereckers I have been to around here both charge $10 for these pumps as a guide for you.

I have seen new pumps at supercreep for $22 so $10 would be what you would want to pay and if they ask for 30, just punch them out for being greedy Crunts.

As for taking photos, I'm a photographer and it's the last thing I ever think of!!

I have a few Vids at home of my veg burners I have been meaning to put on youtube. Some of them look awesome.

One sounds like a rocket and is too loud to run in surburbia for long without upsetting the distant neighbours.

[BigGQWesty]

LET US SEE THEM!!!! That sounds freaking awesome...

Anyway, pump and bottle bought...

Eb falcon parts.. I trust a ford part over Holden any day... Lol

I choose it due to the 12mm inlet. I can get a neat flush 12mm grommet for the bottle

And the simple 6mm hose to the air box.. I'm going to wire in a override switch as I don't want it on at first start up untill the engine is warm..

I'm also going to put a tap in it for 100ml/ min flow.. It sounds good on paper but I'll adjust it when it's all hooked up.

Going to start on a 30% blend. Just need to get some filters to filter the water threw..

Edited July 10, 2012 by BigGQWesty

[Glort]

I think the garden nozzles are 4mm if that's what you intend using. You may be able to couple them to the tube with some model aircraft silicone hose which is very pliable or heat shrink the nozzle to the tube.

I think you r flow is a bit low even though I appreciate you want to be cautious. You could easily go 200 ml with no worries at all.

I don't know how much difference 100 Ml would make although I suspect it would take some time to have any effect. I certainly wouldn't expect to see much if any performance improvement at that rate. The amount of extra fuel would be around 5 HP if that. Just mentioning it in case you are expecting more and are dissapointed.

I'll dig up the burner vids and post them up.

I bought a blower I'm waiting on that does 400 CFM@ 1 PSI. That may not sound like much pressure but you would have to see what you can get with maybe a 10/th of that to appreciate the potential Kaos. I'm not sure of the maths as I keep coming up with incredible numbers but in any case, it will generate an obscene amount of heat.

I haven't Videoed the rocket Burner, I'll try that on the low pressure blower on the weekend.

[BigGQWesty]

Ok. Thanks for the heads up. 200mls/ min it is.

Hopefully my weekend is free...