GU ZD30 Di hesitation & starting issues

[Rumcajs]

G'day,

Malfunction is detected when ...
* An excessively high voltage from the mass air flow sensor is
sent to ECM when engine is running.
Check Items (Possible Cause)
*Air duct

*Charge air cooler

 *Variable nozzle turbocharger control system

 *Variable nozzle turbocharger

 *Mass air flow sensor

* Harness or connectors
(The mass air flow sensor circuit is shorted.)

So what above means is not MAF sensor first!

Since you have modified the way spool up rate and turbo control operates it means that mechanically the system is not responding to what ECU is expecting.

What you really need to know is when that voltage is high and what levels it gets up to. Using ECUTalk you should be able to log unusual voltages vs RPM and TPS.

 

I'd make sure the ground to MAF and engine is correct first.

When it comes to oil in the intake, the MAF is susceptible to it but you would have to have so much oil in there that it would be easily noticeable.

Is air cleaner good/OK? have you checked that there is no issue on the intake pipe (leak) or you have issue on boost side? How does a boost hose/s look like? Are they swollen soaked with oil? How is resonator just next to the air filter? Is the intercooler intact? To me this looks like mechanical issue.

Electrical fault in the MAF unit usually generates 0102 DTC....

 

 

Edited March 9, 2021 by Rumcajs

[bistratoaie]

Thanks @Rumcajs

I'm having trouble logging in ECUtalk, it only creates a log for a couple of seconds and only when the car is idling, when I accelerate it doesn't show it in the log file, just the idle? Do I need to check the boxes (MAF, RPM, TPS) so they are greyed out for logging, then leave ECUtalk software running and go for a drive then once I'm done I just uncheck the boxes again and open the log file?

I will check the ground connections again because my temperature gauge has been playing up too, when I accelerate the gauge goes down towards "C" but when I let off the accelerator, it goes back up to operating temperature towards "H". I know the MAF wiring is all good and intact, I even ran an extra ground from the chassis to the ground in the MAF sensor wiring when I was having issues with it months ago.

I'll have to double-check the air intake pipe to see if it's cracked anywhere but I'm not sure that it is.

The boost hoses were all replaced when installing the tillix and needle valve including the ones going to the butterfly valve, I will go over them and make sure none of them are swollen or damaged.

Air filter was replaced about 1000kms ago maybe so I don't think that is an issue but then again, I will check it too.

 

How would I go about checking the resonator and a leak in the intercooler?

One thing I have noticed, when I'm applying the throttle just normally or lightly, it seems to hesitate, only in gears 3 to 5 and around 2000rpm and above. Although, if I press the throttle down hard from gears 1 all the way through 5 (revving up to 3000rpms), it runs perfectly fine and doesn't have any problems getting up to 100km/h, it doesn't hesitate if I apply hard pressure to the accelerator, only if I'm going gently on it or easing into it.

[bistratoaie]

UPDATE:

I just drove it down a gravel driveway to work to help the missus for a sec, it was quite bumpy and the engine light usually comes on from the EGR block, but this time when I went to take off the car lost all power and turned off by itself, happened in 2nd gear. I turned the key off and waited a couple minutes then restarted and got back home safely, about 5 minutes away if even. When I got back I read the codes and now I have:

1003: EGR VOLUME CONTROL

75: P5-PUMP C/MODULE

Does this mean my problem is the injector pump? 😫

[Rumcajs]

 

 

0705 code is a worry and a dreaded one for sure, indeed that will shut the engine down however I still think there is a problem somewhere else especially "when I accelerate the gauge goes down towards "C" but when I let off the accelerator, it goes back up to operating temperature towards "H".

10 hours ago, bistratoaie said:

Do I need to check the boxes (MAF, RPM, TPS) so they are greyed out for logging, then leave ECUtalk software running and go for a drive then once I'm done I just uncheck the boxes again and open the log file?

Yes. Its been a while since I've done ECUTalk logging, there should be tick/check option for that.  The key is not to select too many gauges while logging as well. There is also an option to just do the logging without displaying gauges (better).

https://www.ecutalk.com.au/images/ecutalk_v1.3_sensors.jpg

If you still have original intercooler it is easy to see where it leaks as there will be traces of oil and dust around the leak spots....

As for resonator probably just visual check or temporary blanking off the hose.

Regards

 

 

Edited March 10, 2021 by Rumcajs

[bistratoaie]

Hmm could code 0705 be something to do with electrics at all, considering it only happened after a bit of rough driving on rough terrain, nothing crazy or fast but enough to shake the car.

What other problem might it be? Does it sound mechanical or electrical to you? I am looking at having a different diesel specialist have a good look over the car and will let them know any and all problems, no matter how small!

Ah no worries I'll have to do some log files then!

It is a standard intercooler which was previously welded, I had a look today and didn't notice any oil or dust build up anywhere so that's good. I will check the resonator tomorrow when I have a bit more time.

[Rumcajs]

I think it is electrical, especially if the temp gauge is moving as you've described,  cause the temp sender grounds against engine block (its single wire type), it is in a bit of tight spot but if you disconnect it read should change either to max or min depending what type it is. If the grounding is a problem due to the movement of the engine that would affect every engine sensor and IP.

Regards

 

[bistratoaie]

@Rumcajs

I took the temp sender (gauge one) out and give it a real good clean and disconnected the electrical connector and harness and gave it a good clean and also ran new conduit around it to protect the wire, since putting it back on I didn't notice the temperature gauge on the dash playing up like before. I also left the car idle for 10 minutes to relearn TPS just in case that played a part in all this.

(ALSO: disconnecting the temp sender and starting the car did NOT change the dash gauge, it remained the same)

I did play around with the tillix and needle valve and reduced boost by roughly 2 psi so it's at 15 psi now and slowed the spool-up rate as well, but it seems to have made the MAFv limp even more frequent and worse! Maybe this is where my problem is, fine tuning the tillix and needle valve to find the sweet spot? I just don't know which one is the problem, spool-up rate or boost limit?

I logged a file (RPM, TPS, MAF) taking it for a quick spin up the road if you want to have a look?

Edited March 16, 2021 by bistratoaie

[Rumcajs]

22 hours ago, bistratoaie said:

@Rumcajs

I did play around with the tillix and needle valve and reduced boost by roughly 2 psi so it's at 15 psi now and slowed the spool-up rate as well, but it seems to have made the MAFv limp even more frequent and worse! Maybe this is where my problem is, fine tuning the tillix and needle valve to find the sweet spot? I just don't know which one is the problem, spool-up rate or boost limit?

I logged a file (RPM, TPS, MAF) taking it for a quick spin up the road if you want to have a look?

Yeah if you can attached or PM me that would be great.  15 psi is actually not that high, thats factory setings.

Spool up rate is the key. You should aim at having boost ~ 10 psi when RPMs are bellow 1700 and mid throttle and max it out to 18psi above 3500+ RPM for safety.

I have Tilix valve on mine and I can hit 16+ psi bellow 2000 RPM if too heavy on the go pedal so I keep an eye on that one. (No faults though)

I actually wonder of the Tilix valve is set up properly and actually backing off the turbo vanes, if not I'm not surprised that MAFs code is coming up, essentially no boost control!

To set up needle valve you start with closed and open it up carefully until VNT actuator starts moving up (engine idling).

That should be your base from which you can open it more if you wish to experiment but it must small increments.

How did you setup Tilix? Do you have boost gauge or air pressure regulator (bench setup) to check its opening pressure?

Mine is setup to open fully at 22 psi.

Anyway, I'm still curious to that strange behaviour of the temp gauge.

Regards

[bistratoaie]

I believe I set up the tillix correctly, I had some help from another member on a different forum and went through all new vacuum lines including the butterfly valve and that actually fixed an issue with the car shutting down very rough.

Yes, I always start with closing the needle valve completely with the engine idling then opening it to the point the arm drops down and then I opened it just about another 1/4 turn to where it's sitting at now and it's definitely running better than before, but still limps here and there very unexpectedly!

AlthoughI am only on 16psi max boost, I'm thinking if I set the max boost to 20-22psi like is meant to with the remap, do I still need to mess around with the needle valve again for the spool-up rate, or can I leave it as is and work from there?

I have 2 boost gauges actually and they both read the same boost pressure so I know that's all good. Do you mean the temp gauge should move/change when I unplug the connector to the sensor?

I do have the factory green dampener in line coming off the vacuum source if that might be playing a part maybe?

Edited March 17, 2021 by bistratoaie

[Rumcajs]

Spool up rate can be left as is (needle valve is not reponsible for max boost attained to a degree). I don't think the dampener has any effect, if it is leaking or is blocked it would struggle to boost as actuator would be slow to move.

The temp gauge should do something when you disconnect the temp sensor. It will either go down to min or max depending on what of sensor it is. If you short the wire to ground directly it should have similar effect. 

Regards

[bistratoaie]

@Rumcajs

So if I adjust my boost via the tillix valve, I don't need to change to a new spoolup rate via the needle valve?

The sensor is just a single type sensor on the side of the block around the 2nd Injector I believe, I can try to short it out but the dash gauge is behaving normally since I took it out and cleaned it and also cleaned and rewrapped the wiring in conduit to protect it. The gauge needle does not move when I accelerate anymore like it used to.

Here are just a couple of log files from the other day, not sure if you will notice anything but maybe my MAFv are too high for the RPM?

Regards, Ben

ecutalk1632021_3.csv ecutalk1632021_4.csv

Edited March 19, 2021 by bistratoaie

[Rumcajs]

Yes, leave spool up rate alone just play with Tilix to increase max boost. Only play with spool up rate if you struggle to reach the boost levels you are aiming for....

 

I had a quick look at ECUTalk logs....

You need to change log settings/sensors.

Fir start: get rid off or untick the "useless" sensors like "spill valve",  "cooling fan" (did you know that is completely useless as it only refers to A/C fan),  " Exh/Gas Reg V", " Swrl Con S/V1", "Battery", "Fuel Temp"

Secondly change format of TPS (Throttle) from Voltage to % (percentage) as that is much easier to colerate.

Add vehicle speed gauge to logging.

Remeber the less gauges to log the better so if you are tracing MAFs issues you don't really need to log coolant temp or VNT Turbo S/V (that one is completely irrelevant now cause ECU is not controlling it, it guesss anyway).

One concerns is extremely low " Inj Timg C/V" values in your log,  that indicates poor fuel delivery in to the IP. Its either compromised suction side of the fuel lines incl filter or vanes lift pump inside the IP is worn out perhaps.

At idle it should be around 50%.....I can't only imagine what they're under full load...(The lowest I noted in your log is 14% which is/has IP damage inevitable.)

The consequences of leaving will be the failure of the IP as fuel is used not only for injection but also for lubrication and hydraulic function of the timing adjuster.......

I'd seriously look in to adding external fuel lift pump but don't forget you must change the fuel overflow line otherwise major damaged will occur.

As for the MAFs they don't look that high but the corelation with TPS%, RPM, Speed, and ICV% will help understanding the engine load therefore explains some values....

Regards

 

[bistratoaie]

I will leave spool-up rate as is.

I can change the gauges that ECUtalk reads, how do I change TPS V to %?

Ahh okay I see so my best option NOW is an external fuel lift pump? I have had my eye on a Carter 4600 (don't know if it's any good for this car tho?).

Is changing the fuel overflow line quite easy to do?

 

EDIT: This morning at 6am on the way to work, it ran rough again (coughing/spluttering) around 2000rpm and barely went over so had to upshift early through gears to drive smoothly.

When I left work, I pulled out of the driveway, got to 2nd gear and about 2000rpm again I lost power and the engine turned off by itself so I had to pull over and turn ignition off (luckily I live 2 minutes from work).

I extracted codes and had 1003 (EGR) and 0705 (PUMP CONT MODULE) which is the electronic board on top of the pump right?

I did clear the codes and managed to get back home safely but is it worth getting an external lift pump if I'm getting this code?

Thanks again

[Rumcajs]

It looks like the IP pump is having an issue, in any case having external lift pump is a good thing indeed it is criminal that Nissan decided against one so it can save money. Bosch has built provision for external lift pump so there is no excuse.

I'd find Bosch Diesel fuel injection specialist to connect directly to the pump so the y can advise you better if the pump is dying (its inbuilt ECU probably has electrical cold joint somewhere, the net is full of videos about it)

Carter 4600 pump has only one issue that is it is non through flow design in case of failure which means you need to install a bypass line as well.

I went for Walbro FRB 13 series unit which has no such problem however I would go for FRB 22 which is now hard to find (I oughta got that one first!) for reason of keeping higher dead end pressure. I'm very happy with the Walbro because I can use it to prime the system when changing fuel filter and if it fails it stays flow through...

The fuel spill/overflow line by-pass is easy to do, just need right fitings.

So question is how far down the rabbit hole you wish to go?

As for the ECUTalk, somewhere in the settings or when you click on the gauge it can be set to %, I can't remember where exactly or maybe I'm confusing it with my actual ECU Talk LCD unit where it is in the options....

Regards

Edited March 21, 2021 by Rumcajs

[bistratoaie]

@Rumcajs

No worries thanks for your reply! I will definitely consider buying the right external lift pump ASAP!

I have also seen a reputable company in the UK that repair just the EDC (electronic board) on top of the injector pump without removing the IP. I believe my issue is electrical and to do with the electronic board on top of the pump, do you think it's wise to remove it carefully and send it off for inspection/repair?

 

Here is their ebay link;

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/REPAIR-SERVICE-Bosch-VP44-VP30-Diesel-Fuel-Injection-Pump-PSG5-EDC-EDU-Module-/283320716471#UserReviews

Edited March 23, 2021 by bistratoaie

[Rumcajs]

Mate,

I have dismantled that injection pump including its module and I really don't understand how you could remove the ECU module only (without removing pump) because it is all connected with cables with all the sensors and actuators, the RPM sensor  is buried deep inside the pump for example and uses ribbon cable......I will try to find my photos when I had that fun on the bench that is.

That company exist purely because many are unwilling to pay for the pump replacement/overhaul but if the ECU is at fault or its circuits. The ECU is sealed in some sort of resin just to scrape that to get to the soldered joint is a task. Also pay attention to which vehicles their offer applies, I see no Nissan Patrol or GR/Y61 there.

You really need to get information from the actual pump module as to what its faults are and that will then tell you what the issue really is. 

If the vehicle has done over 250K kms then it is quite reasonably that it (Injection Pump)is in need of overhaul including replacing those idiotic injectors which are not repairable/serviceable and don't let anyone tell you otherwise those things go straight in to bin. Especially if it has been starved of fuel (remember uses fuel for cooling, lubricating as well as actuating and injection....)

The ahole at Bosch responsible should be hanged by the nuts....

Regards

VP44 Service Manual.pdf

Edited March 23, 2021 by Rumcajs

[bistratoaie]

@Rumcajs

Not a problem mate! Here is a website showing how to take the module off without removing the pump from the engine, I do believe it will be very limited/difficult especially on the ZD30 but it's something I could look at?

https://www.vp44diesel.de/en/vp30-44-dissasembly#01

In the VP44 manual you attached, it mentions a "self diagnostic mode". Do you know how I would access this diagnosis mode to read the codes directly from the pump? Or do you need the special cable to connect to the back of it directly?

 

Thanks

[Rumcajs]

To get pump ECU self diagnostic mode on you will need to connect directly. I mentioned it in previous posts. See ==> https://www.mypatrol4x4.com/topic/1558-gu-zd30-di-hesitation-starting-issues/?do=findComment&comment=10624

Regards

Edited March 25, 2021 by Rumcajs

[bistratoaie]

No worries thanks again!

Just a thought; could my ICV% be going down (to 14%) because the ECU sees the high MAFv signal and so tells the pump to cut fuel which is the fuel-cut limp?

[Rumcajs]

30 minutes ago, bistratoaie said:

No worries thanks again!

Just a thought; could my ICV% be going down (to 14%) because the ECU sees the high MAFv signal and so tells the pump to cut fuel which is the fuel-cut limp?

Unfortunately no, that is not the case, indeed if you pay attention to ECU Talk logs you could see ICV% as high as 90 but only on engine deceleration under no fuel being consumed, which also means the timing adjuster (hydraulic) is not being used either. The way those figures come about is the higher the demand for fuel the lower the ICV% as the system can't keep up either because supply is compromised (filter blocked, air in the fuel) or internal lift pump can't pump fast enough (this is visible at lower RPM and higher demand for fuel during standing take off...) ICV% is basically a duty cycle of the solenoid and shown/displayed in reverse on VP44. The ECU is increasing the duty cycle to try to keep up with fuel delivery. as you pushing the "go" pedal down further to maintain the momentum.

It could be possible that pressure relieve valve is faulty and unloads at lower pressure hence less fuel however this is more uncommon.  The only way knowing is to rig up a pressure gauge before relieve valve to confirm it to be the case. 

This is why it is better to pressurize delivery line then being suction line, having "positive" head pressure is instantly noticeable when driving too especially at lower revs. I did my own anecdotal evidence where a hill I used to take in 4th gear at 60 km/h I can now take in 5th without the power output dying off/laboring. 

Regards

[Iswandi]

@Rumcajs

Desperately need your advise. Why does my boost pressure seeing 35-37 psi engine at idle? What should be the normal reading? I have replace with a new MAP sensor but still reads the same. What could cause this to happen and how to rectify it. I had ecutalk plug in and no error code were showing. Appreciate your support. 

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Iswandi
Add photo

[Rumcajs]

Which version is your GU? Turbo boost read is only supported on Series 4.

Cheers

Edited February 22, 2022 by Rumcajs

[Iswandi]

@Rumcajs

Mine is late series 3 auto di, i cant drive pass 100 km/hr. It has tilix and 3" dump pipe, block egr with plate. 

[Rumcajs]

7 hours ago, Iswandi said:

@Rumcajs

Mine is late series 3 auto di, i cant drive pass 100 km/hr. It has tilix and 3" dump pipe, block egr with plate. 

Yep, that could be why you see just static boost pressure value, do an exercise and disconnect MAP (boost) sensor to check if values change. ECU will not log the fault at least it didn't on earlier models (Series 1, 2) Normal reading is around 14-15 psi at idle (it read absolute pressure that means atmospheric + actual boost). 

As to unable to go over 100 km/h, when on the flats, going up hill, towing 3T trailer? The reasons can be all sorts. Even MAF sensor not reading correctly at higher RPM air flow values.

If it is cutting out on acceleration then it is cutting fuel back because MAF values are too high for given RPM and TPS position.

It could also be simply starving for fuel so ICV% values can give a clue, if significantly bellow 50%  under acceleration it means it is starving for fuel.

As to Tilix, 3" dump pipe and EGR plate that is primary candidate for so called limp mode kicking in. Anything else you have there to control spool up rate?

Do you know what boost pressure is Tilix set to? If it is set above 18 psi it means that with that high pressure you also increasing air flow which MAF detects and based on ECU smoke maps if it exceeds hard limits it limps or blocks pressure around 10.5 psi (that is what used happen on mine)

Tilix valve alone does jack ...it only limits boost which is not your issue. Issue is MAF air flow sensor and its values.

I'd need to know more about your setup. I have Tilix on mine for 22 psi cut off, needle valve set to get 18 psi bellow 1900 RPM (which is dangerous to turbo) and second Dawes set to 14 psi for lower boost level when I feel like (city driving, cold morning etc) and of course remapped ECU .....

The factory defaults can't be beaten and it is futile exercise attempting to do so I'm afraid.  The best way is to get ECU remapped but last time I've heard the gentleman from West Coast Performance Centre is not doing it anymore.  Consolation is then to set everything to bearable levels to avoid those dreaded fuel cuts (limps)

Then you can take advantage of 3" dump pipe and Tilix valve.

With ECU Talk you can log(CSV file) sensors to evaluate after road test to see what is going on. You can use graphing software to create more visual easier to identify what is happening.

To find out if yours is limping set throttle sensor, RPM, MAF sensor, and vehicle speed for logging then you can evaluate. Example if MAF Voltage exceeds 3.4 V at 2800 RPM and 30% TPS it will cut fuel back (limp) . Ideally you'd want boost as well so you can see directly if there is an issue but you can't do it on yours.

There are several RPM and TPS points e.g. 2000, 2400, 2800 3200 and 3800 RPM with corresponding TPS values if I remember correctly. This all has to do with engine smoke not turbo protection etc. 

Regards
 

Edited February 24, 2022 by Rumcajs

[Manual01zd30di]

Hey fellas, just read this entire thread, my patrol had been doing the exact same thing, it started first drive back from mechanics after motor replace, motor was a recon, supposedly good ip, new inj/glow plugs, it jerked and stuttered on the freeway in 5th and got worse over time, it eventually just stopped, it would start, get to running temp and then die, and not restart, I’ve recently done fuel filter, neutral position switch, genuine maf sensor and new air filter, this has not fixed the issue, just wondering what bistroati problem ended up being before I send it to the mechanic for them

to fix as I don’t have ecu talk cable, and stuff all knowledge, the neutral position switch was stuffing up but a new one hasn’t resolved issue. It starts and runs but stutters a lot, not as much but still is doing it eclectically under load. Should I just put a new pump in it along with a walbro frb 22 pick up ? 

 

 

It’s stock, blocked egr and bashed out cat, as I thought the cat was getting gunked up so I flogged it out, it seems electrical tho, fuel related and sounds to be exactly like old mates issue so what did you end up doing mate cause it’s driving me nuts

Also, video is holding it at 3000rpm, it does it in second and above gears, at around 1500-3000rpm, before I go down this road and spend coin I want to know if it ended up being the dreaded fuel pump replacement